Panel: Habits of successful data engineers

Loris Marini: All right. Okay, so welcome everybody to this panel, Habits of Successful Data Engineers. My name is Loris Marini and I have a fantastic panel today here for you to go over the habits. What are the behaviors? What are some of the things that we need to develop as data engineers to be more successful?

The really the core question here, as you've seen from the panel description is the, a bit of a, the frustration that we often have as engineers, that we don't really get invited to strategy meetings. If you think about it, when was the last time that someone say, Hey, I value your opinion, can you come and sit with the CEO?

We need to design. A one year, two year, three year plan. We often treat it as just the executional arm. We are technical people, so we sit with IT and we do our IT thing, but we don't really talk about business. And the second question I have for you is, Do you think your stakeholders know why and how you add value to them?

And I ask myself that question many times, and I don't think they do. And that's why we're here. We don't want to be labeled just as smart techies. We don't wanna be the ones that speak a language that nobody else in the business understands. We want to be integrated in the business. We wanna speak a language that everybody understands and ultimately we wanna be seen as partners to the business. 

So the goal of this panel right here and the smart people I have in this digital room is to go through or try to distill the habits that we need to develop as data engineers if we wanna maximize the impact of our work and ultimately get promoted, to be honest.

So without further ado, I'll say something about myself and my journey in a little while, but I'm gonna, hand it over to Swati first, first panelist. You guys introduce yourself. Let's go around the room and give us an idea of wha where you come from, what's your background? What what do you stand for and what keeps you up at night?

Swati Vishwanathan: Hi. Thank you, Loris. And hi to all my fellow panelists, I'm Swati Vishwanathan. I work as a data engineer with a construction company. It's called Swinerton Builders. I'm beyond excited to share my to participate in this panel. I have a unique journey to where, to how I became a data engineer.

I have worn several hats, including business analysts, data analysts, research assistant. So I have a kind of a organic growth to how I became a data engineer. The one thing I would say is I do not see, I could cannot imagine myself working in any other space other than data. I love data, I love engineering, but engineering to create data products that can help my stakeholders, that can help everyday folks at the company do their work in a better way. So that is what motivates me and keeps me going every day. Yep. 

Loris Marini: Awesome. Thank you.

And Vishal you're next. 

Vishal Ramrakhyani: Hello. Hey hey. Hi everyone. Hi fellow panelist. 

I'm Vishal Ramrakhyani. Hey, I'm 

 Working with Zoomcar for past six years now. I'm VP Engineering there and been. Been an operator and then eventually a leader in the technology space for more than a decade now. Where I've been leading the data teams and even the engineering teams and have scaled these teams to a good extent.

So with Zoomcar, what we are trying to do is we are trying to make sure we en we ensure the best use of millions of cars which are there in the emerging markets like India, like Vietnam, like Indonesia. And we are trying to build world's largest car sharing marketplace.

So yeah, as a data leader I love building data-driven culture in the organizations and help unleash the innovation there. Yeah. that's it about me. Okay. 

Loris Marini: Awesome. Thanks, Vishal. Thank you. Thank you, and welcome to the panel, Tobias, you're next. 

Tobias Zwingmann: Yeah. Hello everyone. Thanks for having me. Really excited to be here. So I'm Tobias. I'm from Germany. I'm the co-founder and managing partner of Rapid AI, a startup here, which helps companies to adopt AI and other faster. And before rapid ai, I worked for more than 15 years in a corporate setting where I did several projects data science projects, data science use cases for also B2B product, digital products, and also developing a data strategy.

So I'm really excited to have this discussion here. And yeah, last year I also published my first book, it's called AI Powered Business Intelligence. And I'm really excited for that. And I'm also mentoring people who want to break into data science and data analytics. Yeah, we are looking forward to this conversation here and to talk about the non-technical aspects of it, right?

Because I think we covered the technical aspects a lot, but when you enter corporate life I would say the non-technical aspects, sometimes, even overweigh the technical ones. And so that's why I'm so excited for this.

Loris Marini: Amazing. Amazing. Absolutely. I couldn't agree more with you Tobias. By the way, the book is an, O'Reilly publication AI Power Business Intelligence, which is the top of my reading list. And I have a feeling that we're gonna have a podcast soon with you Tobias to talk about the book. So stay tuned.

So stay tuned and you might ask, where do I stay tuned. So a little bit about me. I'm Loris Marini. I'm your panel host facilitator of this conversation today. I am a bit of everything, a bit of an engineer, bit of a scientist, but Lelia became passionate about the bridge between the technical aspect and the business aspect when it comes to data.

Mostly from, a direct experience leaving the gap on my scheme. Going to those C meetings, C level meetings with lots and lots of details and lots of technical plans and seeing, hearing crickets, nobody engaging. And I'm like okay. Something is wrong here. This stuff matters.

You should listen to me. I'm sure this stuff resonates with more many of you. And so I decided to explore how do I bridge the gap, and it started out as a fun conversation with a few mates. Ended up in a podcast and now I am two years in the journey. It's a discoveringdata.com. And if I was to summarize the whole thing, what are we doing and why we do it, we're trying to, we're trying to bridge that gap that you feel from when you finish uni and you approach engineering. Professional world finding a job, whether it's BI or data science, or data engineer.

And what, 10 years after. And the idea is, there's a lot of talent out there in the world that most of the struggles you feel in the first 5 to 10 years of your career, someone else in the world has already figured out the answers to those things. It's just that you don't know. It's really a lack of knowledge.

And so I thought if I go around the world digitally and interview the best people I can find on the internet. Surely I can turbo charge my own development, my own personal growth, and as a result my career as well. So if this stuff resonates with you, check out discoveringdata.com website forward slash episodes if you want to see the archive, but we'll have links

in the event page as well, if you guys wanna follow. Now it's time I think, to dive in into the panel itself. And we have a few points today, not a heap of time, many important points. So in no particular order, I'm gonna throw in the room and the first that feels like adding some thoughts. By all means.

Go ahead. Building relationships is the first element we identified together when we were designing this.

panel. So the people skills, what does it even mean to build relationships? I'm gonna throw my 2 cents. I think it's a acknowledging is greeting is engaging our stakeholders and treating them as people, not just as proxies for our promotion.

But yeah, those are just my first 2 cents. I'm gonna open it to the room. What do you guys think? What is what does it mean to build relationships to you? 

Tobias Zwingmann: So yeah, maybe I just add into that. One of my key principles here is to build your network before you need it. So I think relationships is nothing that you should treat as purely transactional, where you go to people if you want something from them. And especially in the data world where we, actually need something from someone all the time, it's very important, to make those connections.

Before I would say it gets critical, right? And this is not, as you say, right? It's not about demanding something from them. It's about building relations, getting to know the other persons, especially if you look if you work in a corporate setting. Also understanding what are the nuances?

Who are the people who have influence? Who are the people who you know, maybe can be a just a good listener actually for you or who, people who can give you some input. And figuring this out really takes a lot of time. And you can't just say, oh, I have a problem now. I have to build some relationships, right?

to solve that doesn't work like that. So that's why, always think, to be proactive about that and just see who you can connect to and also figure out what the landscape is and the environment you're in.

Loris Marini: I love it. Building network before you need it. I'll stick that on a t-shirt. 

Vishal Ramrakhyani: And right. So I always advocate my team to develop empathy towards our customers, right? And if you look at data engineers for them, the real customers are the internal stakeholders, right? You call it data scientists, you call it product managers, business analysts, marketing teams, growth teams all the other functions that are there in the org, right?

And until the data engineers don't connect with their stakeholders very regularly, they would not uncover the real problems and build the right solutions for them. That's something which I always advocate my team. 

No. 

Swati Vishwanathan: I also wanna add here that I don't know about the others, but I feel like the pandemic has added, like the whole work from home culture has added , has may, will, has forced us to think on how to, build and foster these relationships. It's a challenge. I've been with Swinerton for almost five years and I really feel like, I'm part of everyone's team now and that I think that, the first few years when I was really going into office and to Vishal and Tobias and Loris's point that.

a lot of my initial conversations and interactions were not purely transactional. So just, for people to know that I was there, I could help or I could just, we were doing something related to data and especially in a non-tech company that, that face the presence that makes a lot of difference and it really sets you up.

And I couldn't emphasize it enough cuz like just recently I was working on something and this really the user I had interacted with them like almost four or five years ago, and they figured out a data point that I was looking for, and four years down the line, they came back to me and like they was, they wanted to build something on top of it.

But I really not really sure that new people who are joining teams where there's less opportunity for such non-intentional interactions, how do they foster that? It's gonna be a challenge. And one of the things that is encouraged greatly at Swinerton is like just participating in company.

Meets organiz, conferences, like a lot of us have internal stuff happening, and that's not always data related, but just listening in, joining in, sometimes those help. I even attended my holiday party this time which I have never done in five years, so just be . Yeah.

Loris Marini: all those people, right? You get people sickness at the end of those meetings. I remember those 

Swati Vishwanathan: Like really, I have never attended our 

Loris Marini: small spaces. 

Very, 

Swati Vishwanathan: Off holiday party, but I did make an effort this year because all the more I felt

Loris Marini: and it's a, yeah. Sorry, I cut you off. 

Swati Vishwanathan: am all the more intentional in seeking these opportunities, which I probably took for granted a few years ago. 

Loris Marini: yeah, definitely. And. It takes some work. Definitely it, you gotta plan it. It's like a key activity like any others, right? We have upskill on the real latest realtime tech. We have improve your code reviews or do them faster. We have increase your test coverage. All of those are, targets and key objectives.

There should be also meet with three people you never met before. Every week for even half an hour. And I'm doing that now because I'm onboarding at Mars. I'm still through the process of long process of onboarding, large companies, onboarding can last for even six months. I'm used to startups.

Week two is like where is, where are the results? I'm like, what? It's just turning on my laptop. But yeah, big corporates longer times, and now I'm going through that process and the company really encourages you to connect with everybody, including, from people like me that just joined all the way to the general manager, data analytics, Mars Global.

And I'm not just saying, theoretically, I, actually have these people in my calendar planned for the next four weeks. So it's gonna be interesting to have those conversations. Sometimes you don't have anything to add. And I was thinking about, some of the barriers to this. Why do people don't do this?

Why do engineers you guys think don't spend deliberately the time to connect and meet people that don't know who wants to take this?

Swati Vishwanathan: I don't know if this is a malaise that's unique to Data engineers, Loris.

Loris Marini: Yeah. it's probably not 

Swati Vishwanathan: the cult, we are all at some level fearful of, opening or like revealing ours. It's just, I think it's just the world we live in. And so as you said, it's it's, it has to be intentional.

Tobias Zwingmann: I think also on like from a technical perspective, right? We are often so much trained. on Producing something that has an output, right? If you write a program, it has an output. If you do something, it has an output. But the thing about meetings is, and relationships, right? You just meet and you don't always have an output, right?

it's just like you meet, you connect, right? It's very hard to measure, okay, what was the outcome of that meeting? And honestly, especially in corporates, like most meetings really feel like a waste of time and. Most of, a lot of them also are there, no, no mistake there. But in the end, if you if you connect to people and if you build that relationship, it's very hard to quantify or to measure that, right?

And so I think, sometimes it feels like, very hard to measure. Okay, what was it a good investment of time or not, right? Did I feel comfortable? Yes or no? But in the end, all these things add up and. Maybe also to double click to that statement before that Swati made regarding the remote work.

I think that is a huge challenge for building relationships. So in my own experience, I need at least five times the amount, like five, five times more, the amount of time in order to get to the same rapport with people compared to meeting them personally. That means like if I meet someone in person in real life we have lunch together, we have a conversation, we have a certain level of rapport and trust.

But if I meet someone for the first time, like online, okay, like we talk online, right? But maybe we meet a second time or third time and I just realize by myself, it takes some, more interactions in order to get to the same level. And I think this makes things so hard, especially if you enter a new company or if you have new team members joining the team because it's not the same, going to lunch with somebody for one time or meeting someone you know, only one time on a Zoom meeting. And and this is some effort we need to balance in and this is some effort we need to like, as you say, or we need to

juggle that and with all the other responsibilities and tasks that we have on our to do list. And that's why I think maybe, some people are just ah, this doesn't make sense. It's a waste of time, let's skip that. let's skip that virtual coffee meeting, right?

Let's do some real output here. So yeah, and this is really incredible, hard to manage, I guess. 

Vishal Ramrakhyani: Think to Swati's point like Covid was a very tough time. I think after a point everyone had the meet the fatigue of meetings and meetings overflowing and people were not ready to join into and get into these casual talks. It was always transactional to that point.

And once we I think for me also it was very similar to Swati, I've been with Zoomcar for six years and for that gap of two years, two, two and a half years. Once I rejoined back to office it was a new team altogether. People have moved out, people had joined in and for me it was like a new team which I was leading.

So yeah it was a crazy time. 

Loris Marini: Very good point. By the way, I just, I was thinking I didn't mention this, but what an amazing panel we have today. Just take the time to read the profiles of these three people that are joined. They joined me on this call because, one of the things I love when we selected the panel is the diversity of this panel.

We have Vishal who started literally from an engineer and went all the way up to leading an engineering team now has 96 people or 90 plus people that report to him. VP of engineering. So from the super technical to close to the business, we have Tobias that started his own thing. He's is an author. He is a problem solver.

He's a scientist and an engineer at the same time, effectively. And we have Swati that started with Excel, love dimensional modeling, and then said, Hey, we need to do the data engineering. But it's always been very close to the business. So having that mix of perspectives is really, I think what I hope you guys are gonna appreciate this as you're listening to us going through this point.

So building relationships we talked about the, some of the barriers. We talked about what does it mean for us and how to do it. Definitely measuring the ROI is hard. I totally agree that we need to network before we need it. I'm thinking one of the, on the point of lack of time in measuring the roi, what I found with me is It is.

I definitely did what you just said, Tobias. I cancel a few coffee catch ups and the reason I think it I canceled them is I didn't do proper planning as I, I haven't, I didn't spend time to design that meeting, right? It was something that I know I knew I had to do, so I put in a calendar, I sent a message to that person, and I left my intention implicit.

In that moment, I didn't really write down why. Even just as a personal note or ideally a note that you share with the other person, what do you want to get out of it? Why are you connecting? It really, it's very simple thing that we can do in the moment. Doesn't have to be super long, but it can be, this is the outcome I want to know more about.

I don't know, capital investment for data infrastructure, for example. It could be anything, but just have that clear outcome. You can focus on the conversation. At the end of it, you can ask the question, do I know a little bit more about that? If it's yes or no, and that could be one way to measure ROI. I'm just thinking.

On, on that, there's another point that is really important that Swati you mentioned during our prep call, is the being compelling and it's about communication and how we come across. So say that we do our our job really well. We have a key activity in our operating system. We reach out regularly with people.

We have clear objectives for those meetings, and we have a general feeling that, that time is well invested and now the next piece is how are we perceived? If we were to be a fly on the wall during the call and be in the head of the other person, what do they think about us, about the technical folks reaching out to the business?

Do they see us as, strange, distant hard to understand? Or are they open to learn more about what we do? What's been your experience, guys, and what, how do you make that, create that rapport I suppose to quote an important term that Tobias mentioned before with your audience? 

Tobias Zwingmann: Yeah. My, my secret or my golden rule for building rapports is there is no golden rule. Honestly, it sounds silly, but it is like that. The problem is that like different kind of people are triggered by different kind of like things, right?

Therefore, example, some people who like, to have this personal relationship talking about what do you do for the weekend? Having this kind of personal interactions. But I know also some other people, they're totally annoyed by that, right? If you like, they, they are fine. Just jumping into the right technical business stuff first, and then at the end of the meeting, also, chat something privately or so.

And this is one dimension or that you need to figure out. And the other one is okay, what kind of language? Like you need to speak to them. Is it like, Do you speak more to technical people? Do you speak more to to managers, to executives? Do you just spoil the end of the story or do you need to build, some kind of story in order to keep them engaged.

And I think this is really, there's no kind of one size fit fits all, and. I think the the actual skill that, someone needs to build over time is to figure out how other people take in a very short amount of time. Ideally, within the first seconds of, seeing someone or meeting someone to figure out, okay, like, how can we, how can we build that rapport?

How can we get that certain level of interaction. And I think the only way to get there is, just by experience. You have to interact with people a lot and lot of times it's just you're just training this skill, training the skill of reacting to other people, listening to other people, communicating to other people.

It's nothing that you can learn from books, right? And that's why I think, there's no golden rule except for, just go ahead and, just do it right. 

Loris Marini: Definitely. And there's just to chip in with an idea, you just trigger something in my brain. There's also, yeah, you, there's many ways, Right, Like you can build that rapport by talking about cricket or football that is not really related to the business. But if we are in a business context and you wanna.

Put yourself at the center, or accelerate your progression in your role. You need to focus right. a lot on the business. And so that means knowing what those people you are talking to really care about, what are the KPIs they always have in mind? They go to bed and they think about, okay, tomorrow the first thing I need to check that, how are we trending?

Are we up? Are we down? I think that comes mostly from you Vishal that I'm throwing you under the bus here, but in, in our prep we talked about overcommunicating and the multiplication factor. When we are interacting with people do they know why we exist in the first place in the organization, why we add value to them and how we do it.

What was your experience going from an engineer to a VP of engineering? You surely you had to do a lot of communication, a lot of storytelling. What did you find what was the challenge there? And then we're gonna go back to Swati on that question around the the hook.

How you connect

Yeah. 

Vishal Ramrakhyani: I I, think for me also in my initial years it was a bit challenging because again, I had a very engineering mindset. Whereas okay, this is my space and this is my safe space. I would not move out from that space. And for me it took probably couple of years to grow that mindset where I consider that okay not just engineering.

Even product, even business. All of these are my counterparts and are my peers and I need to connect with them. And I think there's one interesting exercise which I ran with my team when the data engineering team was very new into the system and they were not going talking with the business stakeholders.

They were not connecting much. So what I tried doing was I started a fun Friday. And the quiz was nothing related to engineering. It was all the business questions. You tell me which city had the highest revenue in last week? Tell me which city had the highest booking count in last one month.

And these questions Got a lot of curiosity in them. They started going deep into the data. They started going to these champions who were there and other teams started connecting with them, started talking with them. And I think this helped me groom the team to the level that I wanted.

Yeah, that was an interesting piece, which I did, and I think it benefited the team.

Loris Marini: I love it. I love it. Trivia, for business questions. So gets everybody involved and the conversation starting. Swati over to you. I'm thinking the, there's one thing that resonated a lot when we did the, what did the prep, that was the point that you raised on being compelling when it comes to building a who can, being remembered?

Perhaps that could be a, that could be an angle, but I, dunno what you have in. How you build 

Swati Vishwanathan: Loris, for me, and I think that my general impression is that data, a data's a successful data engineer should enjoy and love their work. So take the pressure off every minute. Okay. I maybe with Vishal is like at a startup, you guys are. I probably come from a different world, I feel in the sense that

not every day is like a Shark Tank presentation. I do not go into the meeting that I wanna get everybody's attention in the first 30 seconds if I don't get it. Over Over the years with all the books I read, all the music I hear, one thing I constantly hear is the blessing of patience. And I definitely believe that life gives us so many opportunities so you don't get somebody all hooked up in the first meeting.

That does not mean you will never get to work with them. You will never earn their trust. You'll never earn their respect. I would think that almost everyone I have worked with I have gained their trust, confidence, respect, or even interest to engage with the data team and like work with us.

It has been a gradual process and like to Tobias and Vishal's point, there's no one size fits all. I don't always know if I should start with a, like a, something fun in the beginning or the end, but that does not mean I do not go prepared for the meeting. Everybody understands life happens and sometimes there are technical glitches. But for me to have a good meeting and for people to know that you truly value their time is to put some preparation. So oh, I was one of those people who would just send meeting invites with

no brief outline. So I, but now over the years, my manager has developed, try to put some brief outlines. It helps me, it helps the other person. If I'm going to present something, I usually at least run it once and of course glitches happen. I think those are the things that hold, that let people know that you truly appreciate their time, that you appreciate their insights.

I don't, at least for me, like I, I wanna enjoy, I don't want every meeting to be like high pressure. I think that's, that also means that there's less burnout. There's there's, and every meeting is important for me, whether it's like the top executive or someone much lower at at the rank.

And I also want to say that my experience, even with the executives has been. Anecdotally I've heard that, they just want to come to the point. But I feel that a lot of our leadership is just as humane. Of course, it depends. Are you attending a board meeting, which I'm not most of the times.

So they are just as human as us and if we go with an open mind, they, they also wanna know about Swati. And they do ask me sometimes stuff and I, Yeah, I think. I feel like I have come this far and I do not see myself doing anything other than data because I really enjoy this work and I don't make it a very high stake gain.

And I think, for data driven culture, we want these to be long haul strategies, right? Like long haul. We are here for the long haul. We wanna be with the company, wanna be part of process. Yeah I don't know if I answer the question, but Enjoy 

everything but do your preparation you know they're not they're not contradictory.

They go hand in hand.

Loris Marini: Yeah, it's one and the other. Absolutely. And give them a chance, for sure. These are people at the end of the day, they wanna get promoted as well. They wanna bring, results. They want to connect, they want to feel a sense of belonging. They have all the human. needs that we do. So that's, I see. I think this is the common point, right?

The hook is fundamentally, we're both humans. One spends most of their time behind a laptop, coding the other one, most of their time preparing PowerPoint presentations and talking. But fundamentally, we have the same objectives. Tobias, do you wanna say something?

Tobias Zwingmann: Yeah, maybe just one addition there because I totally agree on you need patience. But I think there's also one moment where you don't get a second chance, and that is for the first impression. And I think like there are two types of like meetings or connection scenarios, right? The first one is like you engage, right?

You reach out to someone, but there's also the other now chance that someone reaches out to you, especially if there's, this is a random encounter and what I always found very helpful is to have a mini pitch or mini description ready of what I'm currently working on and what this is, because working in the data field I always I very often find myself so deep, intermingled in some kind of complex thing, right?

And then some other guy from the other department comes in and goes oh, what are you doing there? Or, what are you working on? And then you feel like and then you don't get a second chance, to come to, to explain So it's always good to have something like, I'm working on Project X, that's for Y, and I'm working together with.

I don't know. And if you have that one line prepared and you can just wake up at 3:00 AM in the morning and just knock that out. That's 

Loris Marini: the ceiling. 

Tobias Zwingmann: Yeah. Because you don't need to think about it. And it makes a really good first impression on, anyone who 

Loris Marini: You're like oh, wow. Tobias is on top. 

Tobias Zwingmann: what are you doing? Yeah. Because if you go to a salesperson, Yeah. What are you doing? 

Loris Marini: They've got know, 

Tobias Zwingmann: Yeah. Yeah. But for data sometimes it's really because we end up do working on things which no one actually no expects us to do.

Loris Marini: It's intangibles, right? Nobody sees the work we do. 

Swati Vishwanathan: get, we 

Loris Marini: I love that. I love 

Swati Vishwanathan: that they use. Like most of the times they'll be like, Yeah. They say do you do like a BI tool? They'll just think that's, and it is so much. 

Loris Marini: I, 

Swati Vishwanathan: yeah.

Loris Marini: the Excel Guru the Power BI. Yeah. 

Tobias Zwingmann: The Excel The Excel Ninja 

Swati Vishwanathan: yeah, 

Tobias Zwingmann: whatever, 

Swati Vishwanathan: for them, It's, they perceive it as us and it's how much do you wanna fight that or do you wanna build that conversation or relationship? 

Loris Marini: Absolutely. So guys, I'm looking at the time, unfortunately, there's something must have happened. Someone must have played with the laws of physics and changed the perception of space time. Here it's 35 minutes in, so we're gonna have to wrap it up, and continue the conversation. Perhaps in a.

Different podcast or a different setting with all of you. I'd love to do that because we touched on, and just briefly going through the points we talked about building relationships, people skills, some of the barriers. How do you do it? How do you measure roi? What are some of the things that get in the way?

We talked about being patient in terms of the mindset, which we just tightly likely touched on it. The, we are, a lot of us as millennials, we want everything fast and quick, but trust and relationships take time. And we need to play the long game. We talked about overcommunicating and explaining why we, our work helps our stakeholders and doing that to the point that we feel like this is, we are broken record.

We've been repeating ourselves way too much. Maybe that's the point where you wanna. You wanna reach because we tend to under communicate a lot of what we do. There are skills of course there, but this is not unfortunately the setting to cover those skills like marketing and sales. We can touch on those in a different setting, but keep that in mind.

Do Overcommunicate aim for that three x at list Then we talked about connecting everything to the business strategy so that you get the attention of especially people that are senior that are there. It's nice to reach out and connect. It's nice to talk about what your hobbies are, but ultimately everybody wants to make the most of their time.

Cause time is limited. So if we can connect that conversation to the business strategy and a compelling business need, which in large organizations everybody knows in startups is a bit fluctuating, but in large established organizations, you know where the business is going and it's easy to make those connections.

And then one we haven't touched and this is probably gonna be. Podcast number one is pragmatism. And I'm gonna just leave it there. But for me, as a personal challenge, with, as engineers we wanna do things properly, sometimes the business is not ready. How do you strike that balance? See, visual in nodding, and that the, I think it's gonna feel, I feel like it's gonna be a podcaster, at least at least one podcast, , if no more on, on that topic.

Guys, I think we need to wrap it up. So I just wanna, I wanna thank you really for your time and your insights. Is there any last thing you wanna to add before we wrap up the Any wish for 2023 or anything that you wanna, you feel like you wanna tell to these engineers that are listening to 

Swati Vishwanathan: I'd say just enjoy your work and happy data engineers make for happy data driven companies Really. 

Loris Marini: Boom, love it.

Tobias Zwingmann: I love it 

Loris Marini: Cool. Awesome. Make sure to keep learning and stay tuned with the conference and with discovering Data podcast as we're gonna have more of these conversations with these three amazing people in the next few weeks. So a big ciao for me, and I'll see you soon. 

Vishal Ramrakhyani: Thank you. 

Thank Loris.