The Giver Mindset with Ravit Jain

Loris Marini - Podcast Host Discovering Data

What can data teams learn from community managers? When my friend and community manager Ravit Jain reached out I was thrilled to discover how his mindset at work could be useful to data teams.

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Episode transcripts

Loris: [00:00:00] Cool. Cool. So let's get started. So today I have a very special guest on the show, Ravit Jain. Ravit is based in Mumbai India, he's the community manager at Packt publishing and we met through LinkedIn - is one of my LinkedIn friends. Today we're going to talk about social media platforms, how it feels to publish content regularly, what does it mean to be a community manager, and lots of other very insightful things. So I'm going to keep it super short, Ravit welcome to the show.

Ravit: [00:00:32] Thank you very much, Loris, it's such a pleasure to be on your show and I was looking forward to it. So I'm based out of India, in Mumbai. Just before starting with my introduction, a pray for India, we are going through a tough time it's the second wave. I don't know if we'll get through when this podcast releases, but, yeah, this was something that I wanted to touch on.

What is a community manager?

Talking about myself, I am the community manager at Packt publishing and bridging that gap between Packt and the communities. I closely work with tech-authors to make sure that their books are amplified at a global level. And, also understanding what the community needs.

If there's a tech book that Packt publishes what is exactly what they wanted? So I'm just trying to connect those dots. Communities are very sensitive, obviously, they learn and practice. If there's a developer he'll practice code, he'll do the programming and they're very sensitive about their work, so if they have good feedback it is helpful.

I'm out there doing all the community work. We are here for the community, and we're making sure that everyone is heard, the content that we're putting out makes sense to one's career, it is giving them a growth curve and helping them in their career basically.

Loris: [00:01:51] That's brilliant, I think knowing your audience is the Holy Grail of communication, right? If you know exactly who you're talking about, whether it's writing, or on a podcast, I mean.. I certainly struggled at the beginning to answer the question of who are you talking about? Uh, everyone interested in data?! But yeah, having that clue, I think as an author, it's definitely valuable. How did you get into this in the first place?

From a data focus to a people focus

Ravit: [00:02:17] Much before Packt actually I was working for a company which was Hexa, and Grandview research. Those companies are market research companies. They produce reports on say, you can say even a pencil, what's the market of a pencil, you know, worldwide.

I was actually looking after the products and services. I was creating reports, obviously bringing up data, primary and secondary data, and working on a market-engineering sheet, which is literally something where you will collect data worldwide about a product, talk about it in continents, in countries, in regions and get it in your market research report. And, that's where I started with data and research.

Then I came back to my hometown, Mumbai, and I got an opportunity at Packt publishing as a category manager. And I was looking after having ideas on board from potential authors and then converting them into books, researching if it's a topic that the audience will like.

But I got into the role so much that I, then I was like, no I'm a people person. I need to go out there and talk more. I need to research it. I love meeting people. I love talking with them, you know what's the purpose of their life, even if it's about their career.

Publishing a book at Packt

Commissioning is one of the most important things for any publisher, actually, it is done by acquiring editors, product managers, producers. So these are the guys who will actually listen to the right idea. And they'd be like, okay, the research about it completely in the background, they'll speak with the author, they'll go off the idea, bring it to Packt and make sure that the book is published. So, you know, the process is long there. So it's like an achievement right after three months or four months of discussion with an author. There's a complete process that happens.

But then obviously I was more like a people person. I got there on LinkedIn and I started amplifying books. I started talking to people, I started getting into the community and that got me like, no, I need to be in a role where I can be very much attached to people and understanding and respecting the community.

Now I'm doing many different things. I have my own show as well, The Ravit Show you can see behind. I'm just making sure that I'm getting those data folks who are making some strides in the community, if there's a book that they have come up with, or if there's something that they've done for the community, why not get them on the show and talk about the achievements.

It's not Books or Podcasts, it's Books and Podcasts

Loris: [00:04:53] Absolutely. And these two are completely different types of media, right? You often hear from, especially people that are already published books, they tend to complain that writing the book is a long process, it's very expensive... Scott Taylor described it as chore when I asked the question "how was writing the book?" Right? For some people, it's a natural way of expression for some others it isn't. And so you really have to sit there and face that screen and think about what you're going to write. In a conversational medium, like a podcast, it's a lot easier once you overcome the fear of the camera or the microphone, we will about that in a sec 'cause I have a few things to say about that.

Ravit: [00:05:35] Yeah,

Loris: [00:05:36] there's a flow, right? It's more natural. We are storytelling apes, at the end of the day, you know, we evolved in front of fires, looking at the stars and telling to the rest of the tribe, what happened? What were the achievements, which lions didn't eat us during the day, things like that. So it's a lot faster, but, there is a place for both like you can't substitute or replace a book with a podcast.

I think the fact that you sit down and really think about the structure and the delivery of the content, like they're intense, especially if they're well-written, they are full of insights. The books that captivate me are those that kind of strike a balance between dumping information at me and allowing me to co-create in the process of reading. So I kind of, you know, chip and I imagine the situation. And so it's a very different way. Whereas when I'm listening to a podcast, I'm typically going for a walk and focusing on the conversation, which is super valuable, but it's just not a book.

The research before writing a book

Ravit: [00:06:40] I think that makes a lot of sense, because when you say about a book, the first thing you need to be in that headspace when you're writing a book or when you decide to write a book, because next three to four months or six months, or maybe eight months, it depends on how you're writing or how you schedule the books. You know authors are having a full-time job as well, but they're coming out of that and then writing a book and it can be difficult. But at the same time, if you have that focus, it gets easier.

When we start a book a typical process is putting out a proposal where we be talking about what's the topic area, what's the market. There's an eleven-level hierarchy that our publisher has created for potential authors and for us as producers or community managers. There are many things in there where we talk about the community, where we talk about the audience, the market reach the whole market of that tech, what's the future of that tech, the approach for the book, the target audience everything you know.

And this is also just before the contracting of a book. This is much before where we are just in the planning stage. So the author is also on the same page that, okay, these are the 15 chapters and this is the schedule. So it gets very easy for the authors to know that, okay, in seven days I need to submit this chapter, or maybe in 10 days I need to just get done with this part. And there's the, then there's a technical review or as well. It gets easier for the author because there's a peer- reviewer who's very technically sound and he'll be giving feedback.

Loris: [00:08:14] I'm thinking that I had three opportunities in the last 10 years to write a manuscript that is longer than, you know, 50, 60 pages. And they were basically the defense thesis for my Bachelor's, Master's, and Ph.D., they told the story of the experiment or the piece of research. And I really remember the pain of looking at my laptop and the calendar, knowing that there is a deadline coming, cause it's going to get done right by that date.

Ravit: [00:08:49] Exactly.

Loris: [00:08:50] But without a plan, without a structure to manage that process, it feels bad, you don't enjoy the writing process, even if you're someone that enjoys writing because you always feel like, have I done enough today, what's the pace, what's the priority? So valuable.

Ravit: [00:09:10] For an author, if he's ever in that state where he thinks that, okay, where am I? It kind of gets very confusing for him because obviously, he's having his daytime job, family, he has other commitments. And then obviously the book is there and obviously, he wants to meet the deadline. But we would never want an author to be in a place where he's confused. And for that, we have the producers who are looking after them very well.

Producers are the ones who would be listening to the ideas then making sure that the book is published. They're always there, they'll be in constant touch of what's happening, what's not happening. There project editors who might be looking at it. There are development editors who we'll be looking at the book and making sure everything's in place in terms of the editing. So there's a team completely that comes up when you sign a book!

Loris: [00:10:00] Yeah, it's a journey. There's one aspect, aside from like the writing process itself and choosing a publisher, and is about the importance of being active in the community and, really changing the mindset from trying to be as technically accurate as possible, especially for people that come from academia where the reward system gravitates around correctness, as opposed to getting ideas to flow and get feedback as early as possible and learn as quickly as possible.

Ravit: [00:10:42] Yeah.

Information flow and the sharing mindset

Loris: [00:10:42] So everybody likes to throw buzzwords are around, you know, we're agile, we're leveraging the knowledge economy, but really I think that leveraging the knowledge economy starts with a change of mindset of how we feel about sharing knowledge, because the word is just too complicated. There's no single person, no matter how smart you are or how hard you work, you'll never get to a point where you know all the different perspectives and can think outside of your box and see things in a different way.

To be honest, you've been an inspiration for me when I started, when I jumped on LinkedIn, seriously thinking, okay, you know, I'm trying to start a business, maybe I should be more active... the first people that I've been following, well you were one of the first, then Kate Strachnyi and George Firican. But what I learned from your content is it engages because it's honest and it's genuine and it's not done to expect anything in return.

You don't publish because you're going to achieve a click-through rate. And I can see that, you know, it's really easy to perceive that as the user and that, that lowers the barriers, it doesn't feel threatening. It feels genuine, it feels true. And you're like, I want to be part of this!

Ravit: [00:12:04] Exactly.

Setting the intention to avoid overthinking

Loris: [00:12:05] Tell me your journey. How did you get to that, was it something that you just understood intuitively from day one, or you kind of had to trial and error until you understood that this style was indeed the most useful?

Ravit: [00:12:18] Yeah. Talking about the early journey, I started back two years back and I remember posting just something that I felt posting about what's happening, what's trending. That was me being very naive about, you know, LinkedIn, obviously, because I just started and I don't know what to do, but then I obviously had a purpose that I want to share what is happening around the world.

I wanted to create a good community out there where I can say that, okay, I love talking to you guys and I've just brought you in one place and now you can also be friends with each other and we can have a good time and we can always be out there helping each other.

Right. So, so it's

Loris: [00:12:57] a fantastic mindset. It's just, I love this, this visualization that you have, you know, because a lot of people feel frightened, they're like, I'm not going to share that because someone will inevitably know more about the topic than I do. And then they start commenting, and I'm scared about trolls, but look, I don't know.

I don't know what it feels like to have 200,000 followers. I'm very young on LinkedIn, but just ignore bad comments, and I might be naive about this but I think that's all you need to do really. Would you agree?

Ravit: [00:13:31] I completely agree with you, Loris. What I feel is when you are on LinkedIn, you need to think about your target audience as well, sometimes. But that doesn't make you feel, uh, that doesn't actually put you in a place where you need to post about something that other people might like.

Start with what is your purpose out there? My purpose was to meet people and talking to them. How should I be coming close to them? Okay, what do I have in my bag? I have a bag I'm carrying, I'm going on LinkedIn, and I'm like, okay, what can I do?

First thing, what's my purpose? My purpose is to meet people and talk to them. Do I have anything to offer to them? Yes. I have some free resources which I can provide them. I have the books that we are publishing. I can talk about that. I have authors I'm working closely with, I can get them in touch.

I can do some partnerships. I can actually collaborate my authors to be speaking at conferences. I can meet new people. I can get close to companies who are interested in publishing. So obviously there are many people who might be like, okay, we don't have a PA, we do not come from a publishing background, so we don't have these many options. What should we be doing?

I think in life we all have five things that we have in our bag. And we carry that everywhere. Wherever we go. It's not about LinkedIn. It's about even a conference. If I'm going out there in the conference, uh, I can meet someone whose hobby is just the same as me, which is cricket. If I get to that point with that person in the conference, that person will be in touch with me for a longer time, if not about work, at least for cricket.

So you need to have that mindset that you're meeting people. And my purpose was obviously to meet people and talk to them and understand what they want and get into the community.

And then it kind of, you know, obviously connects well with the audience when they feel Ravit is the guy who will not only think about himself but think about us as well. And that's the purpose, you know, I'm going out there and I'm talking about the books that we are publishing. If there is something new, which has come up, uh, who didn't want to know right? So that was another stage in my journey, but it started back in two years and then the pandemic it kind of evolved,

Communities, trust, and the infinite mindset

Loris: [00:15:45] It must have exploded the need of feeling close to a tribe and being part of the conversation...

Ravit: [00:15:52] So true, when you talk about the journey and when you talk about followers it's about the people you connect with, your target audience. My target audience is definitely more of data science and data professionals. I think anyone getting on LinkedIn needs to understand the five things that you have in your bag. Put out those options and make sure that you don't worry about your content being engaging because it will happen or over time , there's a cliche quote, obviously, uh, it's a marathon, not a sprint, right?

Uh, you need to understand that it's a long run. You don't need to worry that I start posting on LinkedIn and the next day I'll get a thousand views. No...

Loris: [00:16:36] Oh, absolutely. It's the difference between the finite mindset and an infinite mindset, and which comes from the finite game versus infinite game you know. In a finite game like soccer or chess you know the rules, once you learn the rules they are standard and there is a clear beginning time and ultimately an end time, maybe in chess is a little bit uncertain because some matches can go on for hours or days, but there will be an end time. And most importantly, there will be a winner and a loser. Whereas in an infinite game, the rules are not written anywhere they are changing all the time, there is no winner and no loser. And the point is not to win, the point is to be in the game for as long as possible.

And when I thought about my journey on LinkedIn in the podcast, I tried to really absorb it. And so at the beginning, you see some podcast producers that go out there and read somewhere that they need to publish every week and they start killing themselves to produce content every single week.

And you are a content creator, you know how long it takes to produce one hour of good content. It's a lot of work. So you have two options you can, produce every week at the expense of your wellbeing, of your physical and mental health. You can produce every week at the expense of your job, which not everybody can afford to lose..

Ravit: [00:18:02] no one.

Loris: [00:18:03] Or you decide that you forget about those crazy schedules and you start producing and publishing every X number of weeks, whatever is comfortable with you because you're thinking long-term, you're like: will I be able to sustain this in 10 years?

Ravit: [00:18:21] Exactly, that makes a lot of sense. Before, even starting the Ravit show I met so many podcast shows. Then I actually went out there and asked them about so many different questions. What you're talking about, you know, creating content and everyone said, don't need the same thing.

Oh, you're going on a journey that you'll enjoy for the first four or five months. You'll be in a place where you can feel: am I doing the right things? Obviously, you have that imposter syndrome. Like, are you doing the right thing? Are people even connecting? But people will reach out to you if they connect well.

I always say it's not going to happen overnight. It will take time. You just need to put those roadblocks out of your mind where you think that okay. I've created like 50 episodes now, I need to take a break, after three months I'll go on a season two. And I'm like, okay, that's a good idea. It works for many people. For me, I have a different perspective where I remember when it was my first purpose is when I started this. My purpose was always to talk to people and understand what they want. So I go back to that and I'm like, should I shouldn't really be taking any break? If I don't do that,

Loris: [00:19:32] No, Yeah.

Ravit: [00:19:34] It might be a break for me where I'll be in a place that I'm not liking when I can't talk to people. I want someone to be on my show every week and talk about it. Then that's one of the reasons I go live. Loris, obviously I know the work that you're putting in, the editing, the behind-the-scenes, you need to understand you might go through the interview like five times and you might be picking up the best parts for your audience and putting it out there.

So the time that they are investing that 1 hour that 45 minutes is valuable and they, you know, they feel, you know that okay, Loris you've done a fantastic job by getting it on the show, but maybe getting Scott Taylor maybe getting Gilbert on the show because they shared something out of the box, which we were actually looking out for.

So understanding what your audience wants, understanding what you want to put out there is very important. It should be something that should reflect well with the audience and they will come back to that. And I think that's one of the best things a podcast host can get that someone just comes up, uh, that,

Loris: [00:20:36] That's amazing.

Ravit: [00:20:37] you know, appreciates you about the work that you're doing and the hard work that you've put in it, and the same thing works for me, you know, when I go out there and I talk to, uh, my guest every week and, uh, people reach out to me that this was a fantastic session. You've focused on something which we wanted to always learn about, and we got a platform where we could ask questions and thanks for taking up our questions, and it was helpful. So that's what my thoughts are.

You cannot fall if you know who you are

Loris: [00:21:02] When you take a hard look at the mirror and understand who you really are, then it's impossible to fall out of balance. I mean, anything that can happen to you, a pandemic, you lost the job, but whatever it is, you're going to bounce back because you know that what you're doing is something that gives you good vibes.

That gives you energy, that motivates you, and it's a kind of fuel for "the engine". I'm a lot like you I understood this during the pandemic in particular because I found myself with a lot of free time, the world was upside down and I had a six-month-old baby that would wake me up four times at night.

So life was a little bit weird in those months. And I remember very, you know, when you think about it in a pandemic, you don't go anywhere. You can't see anyone, you don't have colleagues, not even remotely because you lost your job, right? So you're basically alone you're with yourself. And in those moments, uh, being able to listen to a deep conversation that's happened in, in the short past, in the form of podcast was, was it saved my, my life to be honest. And that's when I learned. I was like, I actually enjoy those conversations during a beer on a Friday night, way more than I enjoyed actually doing, you know, the, the, the nitty gritty, they actual job. And now I can code. I learned how to code.

I've been coding for more than 10 years, but I can tell you, I realized that if I write a really efficient script and he takes me a week, I would be satisfied, say five out of 10. But if I have a conversation with someone or I managed to nurture a relationship, even in three months' time, I will be satisfied 5 billion. It comes down to how you are. And there are people that are not, um, you know, self-proclaimed

Ravit: [00:22:55] Right.

Loris: [00:22:56] tech people that don't like other human beings. I've met some of those, not everybody in the data

The giver mindset

Ravit: [00:23:04] think you know, uh, that brings up to a very important topic that is, um, does everyone want what you want? And, you know, um, if you, if you look at that, uh, very closely, uh, I love meeting people. Those are my North stars. That is my role, to get in the community and talk to people and be out there for them.

But is it the same for them? Everyone has their North stars very different. So it kind of gets way difficult sometimes to even create that rapport. I can go out there and say that Loris, I've just added you on LinkedIn and you're my best friend. That's not going to happen.

Right. There needs to be a place where we both settle down and that, you know, that can only happen when you talk to a person and you understand what they are expecting. So a suggestion for everyone when you are LinkedIn, don't think you can take out something from the opposite person, rather be a giver.

But obviously, it goes, there's a lot of things that go that everyone has different knowledge, they're not doing the same work that you're doing. So give them space, act with respect and grace and understand who they are, and bring them to a point where they feel comfortable around you. And they would be happy to give out that 20 minutes of chatting with you in a day, maybe in a week in a..

Social media require different expectations

Loris: [00:24:27] Exactly because it is a war for attention. I mean, that's what we have to remember the difference between me and you now live. I mean, not live, but we're recording this podcast. We, I can see you. You can see me, we can hear each other. It's real time. It's both ways, you know, on LinkedIn. It's kind of, yes, it is.

It is both ways, but there is a delay between the moment you publish and the moment someone will see it, it's also highly contextual and really nobody knows what the algorithm does. You know, sometimes like the other day I just published one line and it was seen within not even an hour by more than a thousand people.

And then days that you write a post and a little bit more convoluted and maybe there's an image, you know, spend a lot of time building that image, 200 people and you're like.. it's true that we shouldn't look at those numbers, but it's inevitable that you do, right?

Because they're, they're there. They're right there. They're increasing, and it's so tempting to judge the quality of the work that you're doing based on those numbers. But we, I mean, I have an intuitive understanding that this is BS. It's not true.

Ravit: [00:25:30] Yeah. I think I'm in a stage right now where I literally, uh, don't care much about the numbers because in the end, um, back to the mind. Okay. Or just 1% of that, I might just go there and, you know, see like, okay, how many people have reacted or engaged with the purpose? You know, that one, one person, but at the same time.

Yeah. So true. But,

Loris: [00:25:53] Five seconds.

Ravit: [00:25:54] seconds, just five seconds. Give me, I'll be looking at it and okay. And then I'd forget about it. But at the same time in the end, I know what I'm doing. That is, uh, important. It is something, uh, you know, those two posts if I'm putting out in a day and people are taking, you know, like I said, if they want to invest even 20 seconds reading that post, it should make sense to them.

It should be something valuable.

Loris I remember like three hours four hours and I'm like, okay, now do I need to post it? Okay. I'll find the right time by evening and post it. The most engaging time for my audience. Everyone's out there. Read it. And after, when you're near to that evening and you start reading again, and then you're like, Okay. And you still have a field? Yeah. Maybe you should change it so two and, uh, I should have posted it uh, I suddenly feel it's not connecting with myself, What I've written like two, three hours back. What should I do? Okay. Let's just scrap it, like gone.

Loris: [00:26:56] Wasted so much time.

Ravit: [00:26:59] One thing that is my very, very, very good friend. And she told me one thing stop having, uh, roadblocks in your mind. When you start doing that, uh, you will lose a lot of things that might turn out to be valuable for many others out there. So I understand that one thing way, well, that there is always something which would be valuable for someone else, if it might not be valuable for you. Sometimes stop thinking about you yourself. If you have something in mind and you think, okay, this can be valuable for others. If it's not that valuable for me, put it out.

The first step to build a bridge is sharing

Loris: [00:27:36] I think Ravit the mindset that you're describing here, I think is critical for any team in particular data teams, especially data teams that, uh, are working to build a, um, a source of truth. Maybe they are building a data glossary, they are implementing new data governance, um, program.

You know, those are examples where to succeed in that job means to be able to extract domain knowledge and tribal knowledge and, uh, codify it, structure it, standardize it, and put and make it available to everyone else. And I, I didn't have a huge experience doing that because I've done it in my last company, send all for, uh, for six months.

Uh, but I was leading the project and, and I realized that. The hardest part as we discussed with Nadia Jury and Jonathan Brooks on the podcast is to run those data discovery sessions and understand how other people understand the data. And what I'm trying to do here basically is to draw a parallel or a link between the mental framework that you have when you're sharing things on LinkedIn, when you're seeking constant feedback or, or simply you just, you just sharing because it makes you feel good, right?

For just for the, for the sake of sharing, because it might be useful zones and the mindset that is required to remove roadblocks and code and basically allow information to flow in any organization because, you know, you can dump the most expensive tech stack on a team, but if people are not ready to be questioned to share, right... I mean, you're not gonna achieve an outcome, you'll have capabilities, but what are capabilities useful for if you don't have outcomes?


Ravit: [00:29:41] Yeah,

Loris: [00:29:42] so I think this is really, really relevant for, uh, for the data community.

Ravit: [00:29:47] yeah, I think, you know, having that right mindset, you need to find that balance, it's not that complicated. Like, like we're talking right now, obviously we have just gone into that critical mode and starting to understand how this might work for the data teams.

There are simple things that you need to understand. Understand your evolutionary purpose, what are you here for? What do you need to achieve out of a platform like LinkedIn, or maybe what you need to achieve by having a podcast? What's your end goal for this? Or maybe there's no end goal. As you said, it's just for putting out content that might be helpful.

But at the same time, whatever we are doing today has a purpose. If we are recording this podcast, there's a purpose. I want to share the information and the things that I am doing. You want to create content that might be valuable for your audience.

Every person adds a dimension to our thoughts

Your audience might be listening to this because they find your podcast very much valuable and they can learn something out of it. In just one conversation we have found three dimensions to it, the same way. If there's a data team, they can find ten dimensions if there are 10 people on that team.

There may be hundreds of such dimensions. If you connect networks, it's like a network graph. When you start connecting the dots, it might just go in places. And once a person starts doing that, they'll never feel out of place. They'll have so much to do, they might have so much to share. Just like content, creators, think that, okay, how can I help my audience by creating a video, giving out resources, maybe getting on an interview, and telling what my journey is.

Loris: [00:31:31] I think you're right. If you start by sharing because you want to spare other people that pain that you experienced, then there's pretty much not going to be an end because unfortunately, the world is not that perfect place that many people depict, right. We, we have so many problems actually, we've never had so many problems, uh, as, as we have now.

I'm not a pessimistic type of person. I'm very optimistic. But if you look at the breakdown of truth and the asymmetries in understanding what the reality of a situation is there, the loss of trust in institutions like, you know, science and politics...

This could be a really long conversation, but what I'm trying to say is if your intention is to help people navigate the complexity of understanding something, whether it's a Python cheat sheet or that data governance or data management program, whatever it is... surely you will figure it out. And surely there are lessons learned, so why keep it for yourself? I say it all the time. Sharing is a really great way to amplify knowledge. You literally learn a lot more the second you share it.

Ravit: [00:32:40] Exactly. I think I agree completely Loris because what I feel is that if you're not sharing, what are you going to do with it? Okay. And you, you lose it somewhere, but, uh, how long if someone else can benefit out of faith, that you are creating a community out there for yourself, you're creating friends and those friends will be here too, because tomorrow they'll share something which will be valuable for you you know.

Mental health for content creators

We also spoke about something, which is obviously very important for content creators that is mental health. We need to understand it is a real first thing. Don't ignore it. It does happen with content creators very often because we kind of take it like a responsibility if we are not putting out content. You know, the community is out there and they're expecting content out of us, but don't feel obligated to create content unless it's your job.

I have just picked this as my job, but still, you need to relax a bit, take that a small break for yourself, and just go out there again. Enjoy it, rather than making it more of a, you know, just, just being that place where you can't handle yourself and then you do more trouble.

Loris: [00:33:49] I think in this sense, the nature of the platforms that we use to share content is not helping. Because in the real world, when, uh, I'm thinking back of those beer conversations around the pool table, in you know, nice startup vibe in the Sydney CBD, uh, those were really natural conversations.

You know, people were relaxed, you are drinking a beer. You're thinking about a problem that you have a work, you learn about a different perspective. Your marketeer complains and says, Oh, if only I had data. And you're like, I actually have that I could give it to you.

Ravit: [00:34:19] Yeah.

Loris: [00:34:19] A conversation of this type, make it really easy to see, or to feel that you are having an impact and someone is benefiting from your work. So that sense of purpose is even if it's just perceived, if it's not actual, because we know that data pipelines are complicated to build and maintain. So unless. You build a business case. You're not going to realistically tomorrow, open a laptop and put together a new pipeline for that marketeer that told you that it needed that data over beers, right.

Nobody's going to buy that is at the very least you have to have a new conversation when you're sober and talk about the idea and see if it's still valuable. But when I'm, you know what I'm saying, what I'm saying is that it's easy to have that feeling that you are contributing, even if it's just chatting because of the very nature of the human interaction.

Whereas with platforms like Twitter or LinkedIn, it's different. So you need a lot of self-compassion and I try, I really executed this idea last week I took a break. I took my family out for one week. The episode with Scott was released on Wednesday and I was in the middle of the mountains.

There was only literally a small spot where I could get reception. And, and so I drove there, you know, at 8 PM everybody was asleep and I quickly posted on LinkedIn and then I drove back, but it was amazing. Like it was a farm stay. There was no, no internet coverage. So no phone, no screen. I had an, I have five minutes of screen time in a week, which is like

Ravit: [00:35:52] Breaks are necessary. And I've seen data professionals trash to me, I've seen data scientists I've seen, uh, and data engineers working for like 16 hours. And they're like, yeah, we've worked for 16 hours. I don't know the technical bits, what models they're creating, what projects they're working on.

But 16-18 hours of working in a day is literally something big. But I've also seen data scientists and engineers working 16-18 hours, but making sure that they are taking a break every three months for a week or two. They are not compromising on the breaks. Well, they're refilling their energy and coming back with full force. So I think that is very important as well and understand that it's okay, the world is not going to end. If you feel gonna go and take a break, just be in that space, enjoy your life.

Loris: [00:36:47] Absolutely. But at the same time that feed that you are scrolling becomes so addictive that the fear of missing out is real. I can feel it. I came back and, you know, in those five days I didn't have any contact with LinkedIn, it was a kind of detox, I removed the old habits.

And when I came back, I realized oh, I actually checked LinkedIn five times and it's not even lunchtime. So it takes a lot of self-awareness as well, going back to what Gilbert said, to try to be aware and catch ourselves in the moment when we exhibit behaviors that we're not particularly proud of, like checking in every five minutes and try to be realistic, you know, slow pace. Let's take it easy, we're here for the long game...


Ravit: [00:37:37] No, I think definitely, I think this was fantastic, the examples that you've given that every five minutes I'm looking at LinkedIn, Ooh, what's happening. time. You've watched it something. It's okay. You look at it for the first one hour and then give it time, let it flow. But if it's your work, that's a different story. If you're just out there to share something, then give it some space. I think. Yes.

Loris: [00:38:00] Ravit I'd love to include some of the links to those resources, maybe that template that you mentioned before in the show notes if that's fine with you. I think people will find it valuable. And what's the best place for people to follow you?

Ravit: [00:38:13] So the best place obviously is LinkedIn. I have reached my 30,000 limit, people need to follow me. If there's something important that they need to discuss with me they can send me a personalized invitation with a message so I can have a look.

I have my own Slack channel. People can join my Slack channel. We have more than 10000 members now. I started sometime in December. People enjoy sharing their work, or whatever they're posting on LinkedIn. I have created a platform where they can share their work, they can speak about it, they can take views and opinions from other people as well. So if you're wanting to write a book, if you have an idea, reach out to me, I'm your man. I'll help you through.

Loris: [00:38:53] Fantastic. I'll make sure to add that, to the show notes and, uh, Ravit thank you very much for being on the show. Again, this has been a fantastic conversation, just like the first brainstorming we did.

Ravit: [00:39:05] Oh my God, Loris. You're doing thank you very much Loris you are doing a fantastic job, don't stop it because your whole set up, um, the way you, uh, you know, connect dots, I would actually want to let everyone know that this is one of the most difficult jobs that you're doing Loris.

Loris: [00:39:27] Thanks, man.

Ravit: [00:39:28] You're doing great stuff.

Loris: [00:39:30] It's easy for that type of work to go unnoticed. It's invisible, but yeah it's very nice to hear that people recognize it, so I appreciate that!

Ravit: [00:39:40] Definitely, always there to support you.

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